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Greiv Rabbah
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Posted - 2015.03.03 00:33:00 -
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Hynox Xitio wrote: ...Stuff...
- Legion not appearing at Fanfest is obviously troubling.
No, its obviously reassuring, as legion appeared to be the final nail in the coffin for dust514.
- Why would CCP Shanghai not present their top priority game at CCP's biggest public event of the year by far?
they will of course be presenting their top priority game(EVE Online) at fanfest, as they do every year. Legion was a prototype intended to determine how it would fare, and the response was overwhelming between EVE players unsubscribing, Dust players biomasing, and some even throwing their ps3 away in response.
- * Project Legion is not in a state to be shown to the public.
Of course it isn't. If CCP learned anything last year it was that showing legion to a throng of hungry players starving from the developmental drought dust was experiencing was a very very bad idea. Legion was never ready to be shown to the public, and this public in particular foaming at the mouth from unfulfilled promises was in no shape to be shown what amounted to a massive waste of our investment in dust. Keep in mind some of us do pay for this game and were of course upset to see that our investment was being used on something other than what we invested in.
- Though this would be confusing given their showing of gameplay this year
they didnt show gameplay last year, they showed the dust514 framework rigged up to run well enough to demo a couple features that were intended for this prototype if and only if it was greenlit. Giving legion a greenlight after half of us quit and the other half threatened to quit if this foolishness didnt stop would obviously be career suicide.
- From this we can infer that they may show off upcoming features of Dust 514, but those will no doubt be limited in scale and will be given to a game already dying through console age and fan faith alike.
from this i can infer that you havent been playing dust and havent seen that the players are beginning to have faith in the 10-year game we were advertised
- * Arguably the most optimistic theory would be that Legion has either been renamed, or could not fit into the time schedule for unknown reasons.
sure ill argue this. Legion is not a game. it was never a game. the most optimistic theory would be that ccp has been so hush hush about legion because they listened to their fans&customers and scrapped it before more of my and other players' money was wasted on it.
- This would imply that something is coming in regards to EVE:Online, EVE:Valkyrie, or an unknown third product that somehow usurps Project Legion
there ARE 3 products in the EVE Online series: EVE Online, EVE: Dust 514, and EVE: Valkyrie. the third product youre forgetting is called EVE: Dust 514
- * CCP Shanghai or CCP Iceland have made the decision to withhold Project Legion from Fanfest in order to have a reveal at a larger, more mainstream convention, the obvious candidate being E3.
the obvious candidate being never.
- * The final, and more nihilistic conclusion to come to would be that development of Legion has either halted, or is being transitioned to a new product entirely.
i would say this is the most optimistic conclusion you've presented, and would hope that the product in question is Dust 514 and not some new pet project for our lovable devs to waste my money on.
- we have to assume that this is a possibility.
we should hope that this is the reality
- However it is to be assumed that this would be the downfall of CCP Shanghai as a studio, unless they could be repurposed to develop an existing title.
i'm going to go out on a limb and say that instead of the downfall of CCP Shanghai, it would be a boon to them. assuming the team that did the work on the legion prototype has gotten back to work on Dust 514, that is.
- Obviously, the removal of Project Legion from CCP's development plans spells the end of the future of Dust, as well as the time and money invested by the fanbase.
this is not obvious at all. in fact, it seems counter-intuitive to me considering that since the devs have stopped talking about legion, theyve stepped up Dust development to a release rate more in-line with EVE Online releases and have even put out an entirely new expansion.
- While such an act would be deplorable in the eyes of the Dust community,
nah it seems to be working well so far...
- the small size of the group leads the cynic in me to believe that our complaints would go unheard, as the benefits of a new game entirely would most likely outweigh the downsides of an upset yet minuscule fanbase.
big enough to get them developing dust again.
- Unfortunately as a console gamer, theres also not much in the way of hope to be drawn from this.
as a console gamer, you should be happy that the ps3 flavor of EVE is thriving instead of being discarded.
- While it's certainly possible that a PS4 build could be unveiled in the future,
EVE: Valkyrie has already been unveiled as the ps4 flavor of EVE
- I only ask that the console gamers of the Dust community (myself included) continue to pressure CCP for a PS4 build, so that CCP may realize the folly of leaving behind a large percentage of their extremely dedicated and faithful fanbase.
I hope that they dont leave those of us behind that have gotten tired of sonys **** and wont be buying another PSWhatever
- On an unrelated note, if you have formulated a theory or thought process behind Legion's absence that I failed to acknowledge, feel free critique below.
done.
TL;DR
Nah. Go ahead and read it
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
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Posted - 2015.03.03 00:50:00 -
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DAMIOS82 wrote:I'm sure they will say something about it. Valkyrie might be the main game that they are showing, but there is more then one day to show it all. Not to mention that allthough CCP showed us last time some footage, to port over all the maps, etc over to PC is quite the task. That's just the foundation, then they still need to add the proper vehicles and stuff that's missing, just for the basegame. Not to mention make it all look new enough to attract players. So when they release the game, you still only have a beta version comparable to Dust514, only a bit different. I don't think it's coming out for a while yet, but i do think the longer CCP takes to release a beta version of legion, the more players decides to move on. Dust514 is simply still just here to hold on to whatever playerbase still remains and legion is the candy that needs to come to attract the rest.
you've kind of got the development process wrong. moving assets from one game to another is fairly easy. the hard part is moving code written for a proprietary processor that was intentionally designed to be ridiculously hard to program for (to keep young/indie/not rich/not japanese people from developing for it) over to be run on a simple, standardized x86_64 platform. A more curious point, and one i really want you to ponder for me, is why would CCP go to all the trouble of getting their dev team as trained and familiarized as they have since the legion teaser with developing for the CELL BE processor, shell out money to Sony for several client side updates, and throw all of that post-legion investment away by scrapping their actual, stable, released product thats actually making real money(as indicated by the resumed development of dust) to spend years rebuilding it for PC and losing thousands if not millions of dollars in the process?
instead of treating dust like its dead and legion is the next big thing, you should try to remember that dust development is steadily continuing and legion has garnered the slient treatment. forget about legion and join the push to see dust become the game we were all promised.
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
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Posted - 2015.03.03 00:59:00 -
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God Hates Lags wrote:There are a lot of other potential reasons why Legion isn't being shown at fanfest. The one that CCP has stated and the CPM has confirmed on these forums is that CCP's biggest title, Valkryie, is going be the star of fanfest 2015. It will be the rift's most talked about game and has the potential to catapult CCP from obscure indie development corp to mainstream AAA studio which would be good not only for Dust and Legion, but for Eve as well. Even Eve will take a backseat to Valkryie come fanfest.
Secondly, while Dust's future is still highly uncertain, just look around you and see that there are three new planned updates for it. Do you really think that's just Rattati programming those three updates solo? Dust is finally profitable now thanks to Respec and APEX suit $$ and you're seeing CCP's priorities shift from a game that could make money a year or two down the road to one that is making money now.
Thirdly, I think you gravely underestimate the time it will take to develop Legion. If CCP wants to release a title that isn't half assed this time they will need to take at least two years to develop it, and it will not be conducive to that strategy to show a half-assed version of the game to fans.
Fourthly, remember the fiasco last time and realize that CCP really doesn't want to have that happen again. If they talk up all the things planned for Legion without mentioning Dust, Dust players will feel shafted. If they talk about their roadmap for Dust, PC players will ask "why are you even still developing a dead game?" and some will doubt that Legion is even coming. It's a no win scenario that will just pit two crowds against each other. Better to stay quiet until there's something major to report.
- CCP is already a AAA game developer with a long-running (over a decade long) flagship franchise, which is EVE Online
- Yes. This exactly. Moar of this.
- i think you're gravely underestimating the dev time required to make legion a game as well. no offense, but i'm pretty sure porting something as massive as dust and completely rewriting it for pc will take much longer than you expect(a year or two)
- true, and even better to just put legion in the "maybe some other time" bin and continue to focus their efforts to keep dust growing and viable
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:22:00 -
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Hynox Xitio wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:
Another option occurs to me. It could be that Legion is at a crossroads. The APEX suits and Respec were a test to see if Dust could make money on consoles. CPM's in this forum have stated that Rouge was initially opposed to the conception of Legion on PC, but the orders came from on high because Dust wasn't making money. Maybe now that Dust is making money Rouge gets his way now and continues working on Dust instead of Legion.
This sounds like it would screw over a lot of players who were anticipating the game on PC, some of which had already built PC's around playing Legion. Then again, a year ago I would've wholeheartedly expected a jump to PS4 in the foreseeable future, so it's not as if people have been excluded by CCP in the past. Although personally, anyone who buys a new platform entirely for Dust 514 either has ample money or questionable judgement. Never buy a console for one game......unless it's Metroid Prime 4.
Dude they had a ps3 bundle specifically for dust 514. They were specifically trying to get ppl to buy a ps3 for dust. It even supposedly came with a gold colored saga, not that all of those codes necessarily worked *I'm glaring at you CCP!*
How many people bought a n64 for ocarina of time? How many people bought a SNES for street fighter 2? How many people bought a genesis for sonic the hedgehog? You don't buy a system to only play one game, but there's always that one game that enticed you to actually drop the dollars for it. Dust promised to be a massive endeavor and a long-term game on console the likes of which had never been seen. It still can be, you know. you think the ps3 is tapped in terms of resources? Console gamers have no attention span. You have to look at each game in the eve series as a long term investment or it will never be able to mature properly. Dust wontbdie when the devs give up, it will die when we give up on the devs
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
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Posted - 2015.03.03 05:00:00 -
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Spectral Clone wrote:Because:
1. Can't Code Properly.
2. Can't Communicate Properly.
3. CCP
1. Can't code properly? They brought a PC dev team into the world of CELL programming with little to know idea what hell it is to learn to develop for the ps3. They've come farther in a shorter time than any comparably sized dev team could have imagined all while undertaking a programming feat that nobody else has successfully managed. ever. And you scoff at their socalled inability to program!? Good sir, i scoff right back at you.
2. Well, they're guilty of that. Thankfully they put a new head of strategy and planning in place who has been working hard to rectify that.
3. Lol. No srsly lol. This made me laugh out loud. An honest thumbs up to you for that
PS: hynox, I'm haunting your thread
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Greiv Rabbah
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Posted - 2015.03.04 08:34:00 -
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Kristoff Atruin wrote:What has been announced for Legion so far is open world scavenging. That sounds fun, but it isn't enough for a compelling game. What they need is what Dust was supposed to have, a meaningful outcome for battles which affects a shared world. That means somehow being linked to the sovereignty game in Eve. Unfortunately the mechanics in Eve for that haven't been updated in a very long time and are so ball-achingly painful to participate in that it started creating the blue donut. Because of this they've been spending the last year or two trying to figure out how to make it fun again. Fortunately, today they announced how the new system will work: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/politics-by-other-means/I think this is why there's been so little news about Legion. The game appears to be function, but is lacking gameplay...which they couldn't design until the Eve team figured out what their design was. From the quick skim I've done of this blog there seems to be a lot of room for Legion / Valkyrie to get involved. The old system was a binary state, either you won the fights and kept control of the system or you didn't and lost everything. The new system gives different levels of defensive bonuses with the possibility of other kinds of bonuses linked to other structures. This means there will be mechanics connected to the sov game that other games can help or hurt without creating a sudden drastic change in the other game that seems completely arbitrary and makes no sense. Some ideas: 1) Disabling a station service requires a ship use an entosis link and be vulnerable for up to 40 minutes. Why not also be able to fire a boarding pod at that module on the station so that troops can sabotage it? Station owners could defend by buying stockpiles of merc clones, which they could buy from corps that own clone producing facilities like in PC. When a boarding pod is launched it gives a window where mercs who are marked as friendlies can join in on the battle, or they could open it up to randoms to defend. 2) Battles on the other sov structures to temporarily decrease their defensive bonus level. 3) Ground based facilities that give defensive and other bonuses to space for controlling them. Like fighter bases or listening posts. A non-defensive structure idea could be an ore processing platform, which increases the yield miners get from the asteroids in space. This speeds up mining so they make more money, but also helps them to increase their industrial index and reach a higher level of defensive bonus more quickly. They tried to do this with PC, but there just weren't enough Eve mechanics for Dust to influence that would actually be something interesting that people cared about. With the new system, that is no longer the case. So they're not showing us what they've got planned at fanfest because they haven't known enough to be able to plan yet. Now they can plan, it's just too late for it to be ready for fanfest.
Please tell me why any of this can't be done in dust?
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Greiv Rabbah
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Posted - 2015.03.04 08:39:00 -
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ZDub 303 wrote:I think there is still a big push for EVE: Universe which would be a unified gaming platform that you can play all three titles from directly, similar to Battle.net.
I don't quite believe that Legion is cancelled yet, if it was I think they would announce that pretty quickly as it would probably cause a lot of people to come back to Dust.
However, my suggestion would be to play Planetside 2, its pretty much the realization of the vision that CCP had for Dust but could never create. I just started playing about 3-4 weeks ago and I really wish I had started playing sooner, its a far far superior experience.
No. When CCP does something bad, people leave. When CCP announces that theyre going to undo that mistake, the people that didnt leave start leaving. Unfortunately everything CCP does is wrong, even when its the right thing. Dust development has begun again and look how many people hate everything they add/fix
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Greiv Rabbah
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Posted - 2015.03.05 02:45:00 -
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I wrote:Please tell me why any of this can't be done in dust? Kristoff Atruin wrote:stuff I can tell you know a bit, but this makes my head hurt. The biggest issue they had in early development wasn't the limitations of the ps3, it was the limitations of certain aspects of the ps3 architecture relative to the development experience of the team.
In other words, we essentially had a team of PC programmers developing for a vastly different platform. One that was designed to be difficult and expensive to learn(sony has some incredibly stupid reasons for choosing to do this)
But before Iget too deep into that, iI need to point out that the legion tease didn't run on the same engine as dust. It didnt run on any engine. It wasnt connected to any server. It wasnt a game at all. It was a small prototype that would barely run. It was made from the dust framework jury rigged to barely be capable of running on the pc they demoed it on. It was extremely limited, and theudea that it was so brilliant is absurd. Legion would be a disaster if they continue it. How much source code written for a CELL BE do you really think will run on an x86/64 platform? To have something as simplistic as what they showed(which would be single player of course) on PC that runs reliably would take quite a bit of development work, and thats just what was shown in the legion teaser, and not any of the things that dust already has. Besides which, you understand most of the glitches and lag we experience have to do with synchronizing 32 players over psn across tranquility through the battle clusters while still exchanging data between tq and the battle clusters? In other words, the only real improvement from leaving the ps3 is cutting psn out of the equation, which would help some but is already where a lot of their optimization efforts have gone. The tqGåÆbattle clusters part, where the most optimization appears to be needed, is what would be carried over, bringing all the problems dust has with it. Again with the exception that dust is written for a 10 core proprietary system and most of the source wouldn't carry over. So before we progress beyond dust were looking at a massive undertaking to ( not even port but) mostly rewrite dust as a PC game. As you can see by playing, they've been getting better and better at programming for ps3, so a move to PC now that their getting going in the right direction seems silly. It would have merit if what you were saying about server side changes (like the tqGåÆbattle cluster optimizations that dust needs in order to fix the lag) having to go through Sony were true, but they're patently false. A server side change involves changing something with tq, rebooting tq, and giving it a few days to see how the hotfix went. When they do implement server side changes, Sony doesn't even know about it. This is why rattati was only able to achieve these at first. Dust wasn't making money, the draconian greenlight process Sony forces on their third party developers is not only tedious but costly(you have to pay Sony to let you put a patch out... Assuming they say its OK to do so) whereas tq is ccps brainchild, their property, and it doesn't cost anything to deploy a change to tranquility and see how it goes. Also, CCP favors a "games as a service, not a product" ideology, and that's why with both dust and eve and (soonGäó) valk they will continue to patch, tweak, tweak, patch, tweak, tweak, expansion, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak, patch, tweak, tweak, patch, etc. The idea that moving dust to PC will change this is laughable because they're still doing it with eve of course they'd do it with legion! The difference is that console players lack the patience, attention span, and long term vision for something like dust to work out. Console gamers are too ADD: its gotta be everything they expect sooner than they've been told quick because otherwise they're moving on to the next game/system yesterday. Honestly aside from inexperience with console development, the worst thing about dust 514 is the player base and the eve players tried to warn CCP that console gamers are idiots that won't be capable of hangingbtight for a 10-year game and you know what? In a lot of ways they were right.
That said, the dev team HAS made strides with ps3 development, the back end optimization to fix the lag issues that got introduced to dust when tranquility became part of the equation CAN be fixed mostly server side(which again is the free fixes, not the ones that Sony controls as you said) there IS plenty of room for the game to grow without tapping the limitations of the ps3, AND the player base has been getting sold the idea of a long-term evolving game, thanks to rattati. After many disappointments(on both sides) the dust 514 player base is learning to have patience and see improvements come one at a time instead of "these things all needed fixed or added so overnight we redid the game and now here's everything". When I put it like that, nobody will say they had that kind of expectation, but when you talk to the players in game you see that that's sort of the mentality, and you also can see that that's changing. The dust plauerbase is evolving and growing, just as the dust dev team is, and to throw that all away now while dust is beginning to take flight and has so much more room to grow into being the planetary companion to eve that we all dreamed of... Well, that would be idiotic. That would be a massive waste of my money(and other peoples money too) and would be the rouge wedding all over again EXCEPT that the dust player base will almost unanimously say " they betrayed us. We gave them a second chance, we began to believe in them and they betrayed us again. We were tricked I to spending money again on a fools errand. Never again. Fool me twice CCP... Never again" and they... That is WE... Would be right. And legion would never make it off the ground. nobody would fall for it again
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Greiv Rabbah
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Posted - 2015.03.06 12:56:00 -
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Kristoff Atruin wrote:Yeah, I know a bit. I've been a professional developer for 10 years now.
"It didnt run on any engine"
And this is where I can tell you don't know a bit, and I'm not reading the rest of that blob of text until you learn to use paragraphs. An engine is just a platform for a game to run on which basically handles the graphics. It has nothing to do with servers, or finished game design. You can go download a copy of the unreal engine right now, load up a map and run around in it. Bam, you're in an engine with no servers and no game. If it didn't run on an engine, it didn't run at all and the video we saw of CCP devs playing around in Legion was actually a mass delusion, caused by hallucinogens in the water supply. When Legion was announced we thought that maybe they would put it on UE4, but they outright told us it was the same version of UE3 that Dust runs on, which they went to GDC to present their customizations for long before Dust was in beta. They didn't create the customizations *for* the PS3 platform. They would have made those before the PS3 platform was even chosen on a PC and then ported the code over for the PS3 version of the engine.
The architecture difference was a hurdle no doubt, but it wasn't why we got a year worth of slow development. Every time a patch went off for approval development stopped for what seemed like two weeks. If you release once a month that means 50% of your manpower is wasted on an external dependency. There might be some small tasks that devs can work on in the meantime, but it is nowhere near the normal level of productivity. I've seen it personally time and time again. The whole release strategy depended on being able to update the game frequently, which is something the platform chosen did not allow for.
Cant use paragraphs when I run out of available characters and if you've been programming for 10 years I know a bit more than you son.
Which is why I ran out of space while trying to educate your smart ass.
Don't try and tell me what an engine is. I build them.
Ue3 is an engine in the strictest sense, yes, but go ahead and get the udk.
Its stripped down, its nothing like dust, all of the components that CCP developed, which are a large part of the actual custom engine that dust uses are outright missing as they were in the legion teaser. You've got a few art assets stolen from dust, some stripped down middleware, and the promise to sell us the dream that was dust 514.
"Was a hurdle no doubt" lololol either you've never coded for ps3 or you're trolling. I'm done. Go away.
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Greiv Rabbah
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Posted - 2015.03.06 13:14:00 -
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DaReaperPW wrote:This, though the only mild advantage to working in stuff for the ps3 is that in theory all ps3's are the same, so one bug on 1 ps3 should be on all. And one fix shoudl fix them all.
But i think that the approval process for patches really did hinder dust. And i think dust could greatly be improved with a shorter cycle. Which is why legion being on pc and on tq would make its development better just that they then control it. with out a middle man
Oh look, an intelligent post.
Yes greater revision control is an advantage of bringing legion to fruition. At this point in time its the only one.
The dev team is getting better at ps3 coding and the ps3 is nowhere near its hardware limitations.
The issue dust once had is that given the dev teams training with and understanding of the ps3 as a development platform, they had reached the limit of what they were able to accomplish.
Remember, they were coming from computer development backgrounds, and the ps3 is a whole nother gnarly bucktoothed beast.
They had to learn ps3 development better before making a 10-year ps3 game; they have a much better chance at that as they are now, but they will need to continue to learn and grow as they dive deeper into the systems architecture or the game will flounder.
The game also won't have a chance if its players keep up their console gamer mentality.
Dust 514 was never a good fit for a crowd that has the attention span of a fruit fly.
Like the guy above who can't read a little text but thinks he's going to tell a programmer of 18 years what an engine is.
The game still has a lot of potential if and only if the player base doesn't fly off to the next big thing the instant they see something shiny. Sadly, that's console gamers for ya.
And buying a PC for a prototype of a potential PC port that's so far off in the future any PC you bought now wouldn't run it by the time it was a reasonably playable beta doesn't make one a PC gamer.
It makes them a stereotypical consoles gamer that just wasted a chunk of money.
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